A Recent Posting on Boquete.org
Apr 25th, 2008 by Don Ray
Our friend in Bugaba was robbed, beaten nearly to death and tortured for three hours (by two masked men) for the combination to his safe (which he was of course willing to give, but explaining how to work a combination lock with a language barrier is nearly impossible). He was tied up, kicked and slashed all over with machete and knife. The Bugaba police arrested one perpetrator (an employee), but only kept him for 24 hours, so he’s out walking the streets (until trial?), the other (unknown) assailant is also on the loose. The Bugaba police have waived the usual 3-month waiting period for acquiring a gun, and have taken our friend all over Bugaba to find a gun for sale, all without success. Does anybody have a hand gun or even (second choice) a shotgun to sell to our friend? Please write VeranoPanama@yahoo.com
you can get a gun with papers from a police friend, regular price $300 or $400, i will try to find the police who offer me one. i passed the same problem arriving to David, but i dont like guns…..well, guns and roses yes
David
What are the rules for shooting these guys with the local law? Anyone have any experiences to share? Are the rules similiar to our laws?
Rules? If you feel your life is in danger just shot the bastard for crying out loud don’t wait till your tied up and being water boarded & slashed to death. Morale of the story is to start packing heat, everyone.
I may be talking out the wrong end of my anatomy, but…
Preventive detention: I believe it is at least 10 days after a homicide. The right to a speedy trail/bail etc might not have the same meaning as the States. A Panamanian lawyer can give more accurate information.
Ball ammunition can punch thru walls. At 50 yards a 9 mm round is deadly. Don’t think hydro-shocks (which would flatten if it hits a wall etc) are widely available to non law enforcement. “Collateral damage” (ie, a neighbor) can be tough to explain.
As we get older our reflexes can betray us. Federal agents have to retire by age 57. There is a reason for that.
Can I get the weapon, create a sight picture and drop the hammer with my heart going 900 miles an hour? Will I drop the hammer or just wave it at the bad guy - making a bad situation even worse?
Am I trained to use a weapon?
Individual choice. But it seems to me that there is a lot to consider before acquiring a weapon for home defense.
That, Mike, is why a shotgun is good for home defense Even if you miss the bad guy, you’ll scare him severely. In addition, with smaller shot you are not likely to damage the neighborhood. You can also keep the ammo handy, but separate from the weapon People in the United States are (or should be) grateful to armed home owners, because criminals are afraid to become home invaders. For all they know, there may some old guy sitting there with a bazooka across his lap. A friend of mine in England says that it is not unusual for strong armed criminals to invade a house, tell the older people to sit down while they ransack the house. And Oni, not a bad point.
There’re a lot of good points in this thread.
I’ve had 20 guns at once, in the past, including 6 handguns, plus rifles of various calibers, and shotguns. If forced to pick only ONE gun for home defense, it’d be a 12 guage pump, with 20 inch straight cylinder barrel. My mother would find it hard to miss with that, and she’s dead. Often, when a perp looks at a large 12 guage muzzle, it will make him think hard enough so that you don’t have to shoot at all, which is usually the best option.
A large projectile can go through a stud wall, while retaining enough power to do serious, unintended, and sometimes tragic, damage. #2 goose shot will take out the middle of someone’s torso very effectively, if not nicely, while not going through a stud wall. It also creates a dense pattern, while, in a straight cylinder, short barrel, it spreads enough so that it’s hard to miss.
A dog or 2 can send up an alarm, and wake you in time to grab a gun. If they’re large dogs, again, you might not have to shoot. If you’re not home at the time of an intrusion, they can bring attention to the perp, which may cause him to leave and go after easier pickings.
I find it significant that, while hunting is not allowed in Panama, gun ownership is allowed. That is, the society is not fooled by the argument that gun ownership should only be allowed for pheasant hunting, etc., etc., blah, blah.
It’s recognized that, when it comes down to it, it’s about the right to self-defense, which is a human right that takes moral precedence, at least, over all laws and constitutions, including the ones that are written to deny that right.
I’ve never been robbed in Panama, but did have my wallet taken from my hotel room in CR, Feb. 1, on my way home. Without boring you, I’ll say it was my fault; I tempted someone.
When I was at Henrique Mali airport, leaving David, I talked with a Floridian who’d been developing in Costa Rica for quite a few years, and who’d been there 40-50 times. He was giving up on CR because of the crime, and had been in Chiriqui looking at property. He loved the area, and said the roads were MUCH better, also.
While at the AP, I also talked to a Canadian couple who’d lived in CR for 4 years, and had packed it in because of high and rising crime. They’d just bought in Dolega, and also loved the area and the people.
I have had my house robbed in upstate NY., several times. The last attempt was stopped after the perp had pushed in the bottom of my casement window screen a few inches, when my newly acquired rottweiller/German shepherd cross mutt met him at face level.
He could have killed the dog, but that might’ve been hard to do with a blade weapon while climbing through a window, particularly with a 100 lb. dog. A shot might’ve attracted attention, which thieves don’t like.
Anyway, my point is that there are thieves wherever you go. However, gringos moving to a poor country have to realise that they are a prime target.
Some of the thieves are in government. I’m a faithful reader of Sam Taliaferro’s http://primapanama.blogs.com/ blog, and am becoming convinced that the bloom is off the rose in Panama, at least somewhat, for gringos, even though I love the country and the people.
The canal expansion always was a gamble, and the timing of it, because of worldwide financial events, looks unfortuitous. It will be done, however, and the money’s going to come from somewhere, and taxes and fees are two places; I think they’re fixing to pluck the golden gringo goose.
It’s stupid to torpedo residential tourism, and new arrivals with money, but Blades and others in the government are making one blunder after the other, IMO, without considering that Panama is not the only retirement choice.
Ecuador also has its own crime problems, but I’m going to take a look at Bahia de Caraquez, which is a town of 30,000, out on a peninsula, which supposedly has the lowest crime rate in Ecuador, plus daily trash pickup.
I can get my 3 pets there, with all paperwork done here, for $75 in fees, as opposed to the $1,000+ Panama would charge. and just walk out of any airport with them. In Panama, I could only use PTY, and would still have to get them to Chiriqui.
I can still own a gun there, and the economy, as is Panama’s ,is dollarized.
I’m still 4 years shy of SS, and the only permanent visa open to me in Panama would be the reforestation visa, which, with management, would be $48,000, with no real guaranty of long-term viability, and I’d still need another property to live on. In Ecuador, for a resident visa, I could get a $25,000 bank CD, or a $25,000 house, which would be much more house that that amount would buy in Panama, with much lower property taxes.
I think there might be a point where a country starts showing signs of “gringo overload”, and I think Panama may be reaching that point. It manifests itself in higher crime, higher property prices, and higher taxes and fees.
CR has been there for a while, Panama may be reaching that point, and I’m sure Ecuador will get there sometime, but has a ways to go. Venezuela’s a mess, taxes are too high in Nicaragua, plus you MUST, practically speaking, speak Espanol, as you must in Uruguay, where it’s too windy, cool, and expensive for me anyway. The DR’s fine, if you psychologically can stand being contained on an island, while importing fuel, and running a stinky deiesel generator every day, while surrounded by people who are doing the same, because of the iffy electricity supply system. I don’t care for the hurricanes that visit several of those places, either.
All I know for sure is that I’m sick of living in a militaristic, fascist, financially flat-busted state, and need to get, very soon, to someplace where food grows all year, nearby, and I don’t absolutely need a car or fossil fuel heat. I may have to accept 1/3 less for my house than i could have gotten 2-3 years ago, but I’ve gotta get.
I’m finding out that contemplating this expat thing, or even cutting the cords that have bound for more than half a century, isn’t as simple as I’d figured.
I’m sorry for my long digression, but the very fact that you are all reading this blog makes me believe that many of you might be thinking about the same things that occupy my mind.
Any thoughts, Don?
James Feltus
In a way it’s sort of unsettling to see Don’s blog even temporarily taken over by folks, albeit good people, who are very focused on security–to the point that a discussion of arming for self-defense seems like a good point of discussion. I grew up with firearms and understand some of the emotions behind having them near, but I also remember that the safety of my early homes was due to the relationships we all had with one another in our community, not in fear of one another.
If expats find themselves embattled and moving from one locale to another, then there’s either something basically wrong in the communities or in their relationships to the communities. (Note: To those who already feel embattled, this has to sound naive. I can live with this.)
In preparing to spend a great deal of time in (probably) Panamá, I’m trying to learn more about the people, the language (God help me!), and so forth. I would like to understand just how I (and my compatriots) might fit well into Panamanian society. I know that, though I might not be affluent in the U.S., I would be wealthy (with a capital W) in Panamá, and I’m a believer that wealth carries responsibilities and obligations; that is, I feel that a person who has a greater share of the community’s resources really has to spend time and effort to try and make the community a better place for most of the people (and, yes, if some people must think of me as a bleeding heart, so be it).
Sadly, from my perspective, the U.S. continues to be a leader–now leading in advocating blind self-interest, rather than so-called enlightened self-interest. We live in a complex, increasingly globalized place to live. Many people are trying hard to maximize their financial positions and personal security, while others give their lives and fortunes away to help others (one good example: Dr. Paul Farmer, as described in Tracy Kidder’s book Mountains Beyond Mountains).
So, though I’m not actually disturbed by the recent flurry of self-defense alarms here, I’m still ready to speculate that ninety-some percent of the people of David and its vicinity are truly good people, willing to help even the wealthy live well among them, particularly if they see the benefit of having those people working with them.
No offense intended. I think this is a great thread to see this amount of input in.
Thanks to all for taking the time to leave comments. I posted the two recent posts on crime to make people aware that crime is everywhere you go. You can be naive and realize that there are some dangers only after it happens to you, or you can learn that there is always a potential and be observant for possible dangers.
I personally love Panama and have no plan to leave. James, you make many good points and I think most are relevant for anyone moving to any country that has a high percentage of poor people.
You don’t have to be a gringo to be a target. Anyone that is known to have money is a target. Many gringos help to help to advertise that they have wealth. You can tell by the way they dress, the jewelry they wear, and braggadocios manner they carry where ever they go. Unfortunately, then many other gringos become targets by the fact that they are a gringo. It is assumed that all gringos have money.
Maybe this requires enough discussion, that it would be better as a post of its own. I will probably do that in a day or two. I have to admit, that I don’t think that owning a firearm is the method of defense I would choose.
Frank and don,
You both make some good points. Wherever I end up, I long ago decided I’m not going to live in a gated community, will try to merge with the culture, and may never decide to get a gun, although I like that option. I will have a machete and dogs, partly because I love dogs. Having been robbed doesn’t necessarily make one paranoid, but it does make you think.
I will try not to look too prosperous (that might be easy, LOL!), and may not even have a car, as the taxi systems down there are so much better than where I live. I don’t have a TV now, and won’t there. I can live with a boombox, rather than an expensive stereo, etc.. America has become too materialistic, and I want to symplify. I want a simple, small house, partly because I don’t want to be a slave to my property.
Frank, communities have changed here, as you say, and for the worse, I think, and one of the reasons I want to move is to find community again. In my time in Panama, I found that they haven’t lost it. Yet, anyway, and I expect the rest of Latin America is similar.
I do plan to learn Spanish, and have picked up a little, but it might take some time to become fluent. To move to Latin America and not make that effort would make me just the kind of gringo I want to leave behind.
I currently have no guns, but believe it should be a non-violent person’s right to own one.
I believe that most people are basically good, but that most of us have some bad in us, and that wealth disparity and envy will often bring that out, which is a good reason to try to end those things. A few, no matter where you go are mostly bad, but I found the friendly Panamanians readily willing to point some of those out to me, when they saw that my own naivete might get me into trouble. There’s that community spirit, in its best sense.
They didn’t even know me, but they seemed to care, and that’s the kind of place I want to live in, and that’s the way we should all aspire to be.
James Feltus
Sorry to get picky on you, but a house does not get robbed, a person does. A house is burglarized. That is why a strong arm robbery is when the suspect uses force to take something from someone. Force used on a house is called a forced entry. Sorry, but I keep hearing the wrong terms used.
[...] Panama Guide posted a more complete description of the home invasion in Volcan. Read it [...]
Good Panama Guide article, which touches several points. Thanks. The house I rented in Los Lomas not only had wooden exterior doors, but, outside those, steel bar doors, and I used them.
I usually wear a small diamond stud ear ring here, but in Panama, I replace it with a steel stud, and don’t wear a watch or a ring.
My dogs sleep in my bedroom. Their ears serve as burglar detectors, and their barks as an alarm. Their noses and barks serve as fire detectors and alarms.
Anywhere in the world there will be crime; and there will be anyplace there are people. But to put it in perspective, here are some murder rates for 2005. Colombia is #1, Costa Rica #19, the US #24, and Panama doesn’t even make the list of 62. So, use your heads, keep thinking about personal and family safety and security, and relax and enjoy beautiful, friendly Panama:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
I AM NEW IN BOQUETE AND BEEN HUSSELD OUT OF $220. BECAUSE RAY SPOKE ENGLISH I TRUSTED HIM. BAD MISSTAKE. YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN. HE WOULD BE BETTER OF TO LIVE IN PANAMA CITY. CAN WE PLEASE NOT ALLOW THIS TYPE OF PEOPLE HERE. THIS IS MY FINAL RESTING PLACE. I LOVE THE SUNSHINE, RAIN AND PEOPLE. I AM NOT HERE TO MAKE CHANGE, HOWEVER I DO NOT WANT THE RAYS OF THE WOURLD TO MAKE A CHANGE. IF ONE ROTTEN APPLE GETS IN THE BOWL OTHERS WILL FOLLOW. I REST MY CASE. JOE ESTEP